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Shatter, Destroy and Wither - Valid Targets, Shatter Resists, and Valid Effect Calls
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Corey.Kump
Tue May 08 2012, 08:25PM
Registered Member #66
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 04:34AM
Posts: 140
Also, could we get some errata that clarifies that the example (that allows you to call a Shatter Resist to avoid taking the damage from a carrier) is incorrect? This example is contradicted by other rules text.
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noahmason
Tue Jun 26 2012, 02:34PM
Registered Member #102
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 04:48AM
Posts: 242
The example you first cited explains that you still have to pick a valid target if a subtarget is specified. You can never choose an invalid target for a subtarget effect no matter what.
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Corey.Kump
Tue Jul 03 2012, 12:03PM
Registered Member #66
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 04:34AM
Posts: 140
To be clear (this is what you told me when I talked to you about this off-line):

A rendered sword is an invalid target for the effect "Shatter Sword" because of the text in "Render Indestructible," [1] which states that an item being Indestructible prevents that item from being affected by Shatter and Destroy. Targets that cannot be affected are considered to be invalid.

This discussion raised a few questions for me:

* If I cast a Sleep spell at a ghost, who calls "No Effect," can I later memorize my spell back since the ghost was an invalid target? See rules text reference [2].
* If I cast a Sleep spell at an imprisoned person, who calls "No Effect," can I later memorize my spell back since the person was an invalid target?
* If I slay a ghost with a normal weapon and he calls "No Effect," does my slay remain active?
* Do you call "No Effect" when taking damage while in your Dying count? What about in your Death count?
* When are you considered an invalid target for a slay (and thus when is a slay that lands not expended)?

[1] - p. 46 (Formal Magic rules): This formal magic will render the target Indestructible, which prevents an item from being affected by normal destructive means such as Shatter and Destroy spells or normal physical damage including traps.
[2] - p. 47 (Rulebook): "A spell-casting character may also Meditate to regain spells that missed a legal target. At the end of the meditation, the character regains the use of any thrown spells that failed to hit a valid target, as well as all spells, skills and abilities lost to the Return <type> effect."
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BillT
Tue Jul 03 2012, 01:16PM
Registered Member #1000
Joined: Mon Mar 26 2012, 11:54AM
Posts: 35
Target Specific
Some effect like Wither Limb or Shatter have a sub-target as part of
the call. This is required for spells and optional for other delivery
methods such as carrier attacks or potions. If the sub-target is not
specified then it is the target’s choice as to which sub-target that is
un-withered(Wither Limb ) or un-rendered(Shatter, Destroy) will
be effected. If no target matching the description exists, the call is
“got it”. Calling “No effect” in this situation is incorrect.


The bit about the sub-target on page 47 is meant for people to know that they have to pick something that's valid. This prevents people from getting hit with a 10 normal shatter and picking "School Bus" as a sub-type, which they have none of, so nothing breaks.

Picking a sub-type was never intended to make the effect less effective. That is an overly complicated and counter-intuitive interpretation of the rule.

So here's how you should play it:

- Withered limbs and rendered items act as if they didn't exist on your person at all in regards to any Wither Limb and Shatter/Destroy spells respectively. You must choose a different limb/item.

- If you are hit by an effect with a target-specific call and you don't have any legal targets (for example, wither your arm with both arms withered, or shatter sword when your only sword is rendered), the call is "Got it" and you take any damage associated with the attack but nothing is destroyed. You have no un-withered arms or un-rendered swords. Do not call no-effect.

- Spells are the only thing that require specific targets. Carrier attacks can be "10 normal shatter" and packet attacks can be "20 physical wither limb." In those cases, the target must pick a legal target that applies to you, if one exist (which does not include already withered limbs, rendered items, or items you don't own, like school busses).
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-CRIMSON
Tue Jul 03 2012, 01:40PM
-CRIMSON
Registered Member #18
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 03:49AM
Posts: 207
"or items you don't own, like school buses"


you know me so well.
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noahmason
Tue Jul 03 2012, 02:21PM
Registered Member #102
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 04:48AM
Posts: 242
You only get your spell back if you miss with a thrown packet or you get Returned. It's an unfortunate wording, but in that specific case, "missed a valid target" and "failed to hit a valid target" both mean you threw a packet and didn't hit any player. Hitting a creature that is immune to your attack does not allow you to regain it after meditating. An in-game character is never considered "invalid" for this purpose. Furthermore, any reference in the Target Specific entry applies ONLY to effects that have a sub-target or option. Sleep, slay, etc. do not have sub-targets or options so therefore all in-game characters are considered "valid."

[ Edited Tue Jul 03 2012, 02:22PM ]
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AsheBlackfist
Tue Jul 03 2012, 03:20PM
Registered Member #44
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 04:02AM
Posts: 147
noahmason wrote ...

You only get your spell back if you miss with a thrown packet or you get Returned. It's an unfortunate wording, but in that specific case, "missed a valid target" and "failed to hit a valid target" both mean you threw a packet and didn't hit any player. Hitting a creature that is immune to your attack does not allow you to regain it after meditating. An in-game character is never considered "invalid" for this purpose. Furthermore, any reference in the Target Specific entry applies ONLY to effects that have a sub-target or option. Sleep, slay, etc. do not have sub-targets or options so therefore all in-game characters are considered "valid."


which is dumb.
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AsheBlackfist
Tue Jul 03 2012, 03:22PM
Registered Member #44
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 04:02AM
Posts: 147
BillT wrote ...

and packet attacks can be "20 physical wither limb."


are you sure you can put a 20 in front of that physical wither limb? reading through the book I can't seem to find where it is available to just stack a number on a packet attack in front of something that also has an effect. honest question.
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noahmason
Tue Jul 03 2012, 03:31PM
Registered Member #102
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 04:48AM
Posts: 242
You used to be able to throw a combination damage and effect packet attack as such, but we removed that in 9th edition. If you look at the chart on page 89, you can either throw "Elemental <Effect>" OR "<Number> Elemental <Damage Type>." I can't say for certain if the numeric damage form of Physical packet attacks was left out on purpose or if that was an oversight. You used to be able to throw "10 Physical Stone" but apparently there is no provision for that in 9th edition. (You could still throw "Physical Stone Bolt 25" though.)

I'll double-check with the rest of the group to determine if we intend to allow damage-only physical packet attacks. Either way though, you won't be able to combine a straight damage attack with an effect attack.
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BillT
Thu Jul 05 2012, 07:16AM
Registered Member #1000
Joined: Mon Mar 26 2012, 11:54AM
Posts: 35
Ashe is probably right. You can probably throw damage or an effect (20 physical flame or physical flame bolt 20). It makes sense, because this removes confusion from effects that do damage and more damage (20 physical flame bolt 20). I was trying to be classy and mix it up, but added even more confusion...

Like a boss.
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