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Celestial Playtest
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pjrey
Fri Sep 09 2011, 11:26PM
Registered Member #134
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 11:01AM
Posts: 10
Cel scholars are more or less on strike at my chapter. I think they have all turned Earth templar, because cel is rather unattractive in a game where many people swing the equivalent of infinite flamebolts. Here's my attempt at improving the utility & roleplay aspects of cel magic.

Right now, I'm looking for feedback with the hope that, after several more revisions, we might have serious candidate for a celestial playtest.

Celestial Playtest

[ Edited Fri Sep 09 2011, 11:27PM ]
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Corey.Kump
Sat Sep 10 2011, 05:36PM
Registered Member #66
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 10:34AM
Posts: 140
Have you considered how this playtest would affect APL 20 and lower games?
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Corey.Kump
Sat Sep 10 2011, 05:44PM
Registered Member #66
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 10:34AM
Posts: 140
Oh, you're from PRO. No wonder you think Celestial magic is weak: they removed half of its Formal capabilities from the game.
I wouldn't play a Celestial scholar there, either.
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Administrator
Sat Sep 10 2011, 07:09PM
Dark Lord of NERO

Registered Member #1
Joined: Mon May 30 2011, 02:21AM
Posts: 170
I've been a proponant of giving Celestial scholars a base spell that they can throw indefinitely. Something that does a small amount of damage, maybe taking Magic Missile out of the first level slot and allowing them to throw it indefinitely.

Some may think it's overpowered, but really.. how many packets is the average player toting around?
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Lananan
Sat Sep 10 2011, 10:33PM
Lananan
Registered Member #30
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 09:56AM
Posts: 103
Ken Gillis wrote ...

...but really.. how many packets is the average player toting around?


Several of the players down here bring a couple backpacks full of packets.
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pjrey
Sun Sep 11 2011, 10:53PM
Registered Member #134
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 11:01AM
Posts: 10
Corey.Kump wrote ...

Have you considered how this playtest would affect APL 20 and lower games?


I think it scales well, but would definitely love to hear you thoughts.
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pjrey
Sun Sep 11 2011, 11:01PM
Registered Member #134
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 11:01AM
Posts: 10
Corey.Kump wrote ...

Oh, you're from PRO. No wonder you think Celestial magic is weak: they removed half of its Formal capabilities from the game.
I wouldn't play a Celestial scholar there, either.


We play straight 9th ed with no modifications... not sure what you mean. We used to actually buff cel cantrips in 8th ed, but were pressured into compliance.

Cel was fine at PRO ten years ago. It has just grown relatively weak as the player base has aged. Back in the day, when 10 magic was a lot of damage for a fighter to swing, a 40-point dragon's breath was serious firepower. Cel casters were the artillery. Now that 20 is the new 10 and rogues swing an easy 30+ from behind, a per day ability that does only 40 points of damages is lackluster. More effective to just heal templars/rogues and let them do the damage.

The problem, of course, is that 40 points is still a lot in PvP. I think my playtest is a good compromise between these issues. But I'm really just trying to start a dialogue.
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pjrey
Sun Sep 11 2011, 11:10PM
Registered Member #134
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 11:01AM
Posts: 10
Ken Gillis wrote ...

I've been a proponant of giving Celestial scholars a base spell that they can throw indefinitely. Something that does a small amount of damage, maybe taking Magic Missile out of the first level slot and allowing them to throw it indefinitely.

Some may think it's overpowered, but really.. how many packets is the average player toting around?


Agreed. I put it in the original. There were two skill. The first let you conjure a ethereal staff or small weapon (e.g., a wand)(this was similar to the ethereal sword cantrip, but a plain skill). The second allowed to channel unlimited "5 elemental <your mastered element>" through the conjured weapon. I ultimately dropped it because I felt it distracted from the more important issues and because I had trouble getting the scaling right. I don't think characters < or = lvl 10 should have infinite "5 elemental <blah>." That's way too strong. Probably should have to get formal first. Maybe make it a 0 comp, 1 hr cantrip...

Cool idea, but maybe too much for now... Still, I could share my notes were folks interested.
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Corey.Kump
Mon Sep 12 2011, 04:05AM
Registered Member #66
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 10:34AM
Posts: 140
My third post (response to Ken Gillis) either was deleted or never posted... Lame.

@Ken Gillis
I'm a fan of allowing an infinite 1-5 damage packet delivered effect as a 0-costed, 1 day duration cantrip.


I personally think there should be skills that increase the effectiveness rather than the longevity of a celestial scholar/templar. I do not think that increasing the effectiveness of the existing spells is the correct answer.

One solution I heard of that could be tweaked to work involved purchasing "Celestial Damage Proficiencies." Assume, for now, that they do not function only on base effects (ICF spells, boltstorm, element's fury). I imagine there would also be a partial skill, somewhat like critical attacks, for this skill.

"Celestial Potence"
F: 75 R: 50 S: 25 T: 30
Effect: The damage of your Celestial spells cast from memory and of the cantrips Boltstorm and Element's Fury is increased by 5.

This would allow a character to either increase his column by 1 OR increase his damage dealt by 5. The most extreme example I can imagine (at 307 build) is someone with a 4 column that spent 200 build on 8x Celestial Potence (all spells do +40 damage). So they'd be throwing lightning bolts for 50 damage.

This idea still needs work, but I think it's the direction we should head with Celestial (and potentially even Earth) casters, rather than simply buffing everything we do.

@pjrey - no, your playtest would not, IMO, scale well at an APL 20 or lower chapter. At 15th level a character effectively could have 60 single shot slays (160 build = 80 for a 321 topper and 80 build on 20 formal, spent on mastered element's furies thrown in 100 point increments).

@pjrey - Golems are part of the rulebook but are considered to effectively not exist for PC purposes at PRO. Golems are one of the most effective things a high level Celestial scholar can do - depending on how they are statted at the chapter, of course - and removing them from the game serves to only weaken them.
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HMTaylor
Mon Sep 12 2011, 02:41PM
HMTaylor
Registered Member #22
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 09:51AM
Posts: 204
And the debate on how to "fix" celestial continues!
I don't think celestial is broken so much as the rest of the game is broken... and celestial hasn't been brought up to match. 9th edition fixed a lot of things, but the overall problem of high level characters in a low level rules system still exists.

I think this would be an interesting band-aid to even out the damage between celestial and fighters, but I'm not sure it is a long-term solution. And with no build cost, it really does break a low level game. I do however love the addition of the rest of the elements, and the elemental specialization. I've wanted something like that in Nero for a long time now.

My 2 favorite "fixes" for magic imbalance so far have been base 10 celestial (easy, no build, not limited to higher levels, etc) and the divide potions/ fork scrolls that appeared in one of the 9th edition drafts that was posted. Those two things would be enough, for now, to even things out.
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