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Counted Actions......
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madhobling
Sat Apr 14 2012, 08:54AM
Registered Member #62
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 04:33AM
Posts: 51
I used to have this debate with some of the Nero SC staff and wanted to see what you guys think....

I used to tell our staff that when a pc/npc was performing a counted action that brought them from a completely oop state to an in play state, that they are not actually there until the count is over, therefore can not be affected until it is done. They said no thats not what the wording of the book says, but the rule was not originally meant for coming into play but for starting in play and going out, or to a different location in play (ie through a cabin wall).

Reasons for my argument:
1) If you are rifting out you are not considered in the new location until you finish the 3 count so people at your current location can still hit you. So why when you are rifting in are you counted as there when you start the count not when you end it. When a zombie is crawling out of the ground, it is not actually out of the ground until the end of the count so how can you hit it. If a spider is crawling down a tree, until it gets all the way down you can't reach it.

2) From a staff/npc side of things it is agrravating as hades when I say "stepping out of the gate one.." and 15 people start pelting me (which I can do nothing about because I am not there yet) and I die before I take a step. To me this ruins fights, makes your npcs aggitated, and makes for unsafe conditions because people crowd the spawn point to hit the npcs with everything withing the 3 second count. My fellow staff members learned this finally one event when not one npc got out of a gate we had (I counted 45 elememental spawnings and not one take a single step out of the gate).

Opinions?
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NEROPhoenix
Sat Apr 14 2012, 09:30AM
NEROPhoenix
Registered Member #954
Joined: Tue Mar 20 2012, 06:09PM
Posts: 66
As I understand this is correct creatures rifting can be targeted by spells or other actions.

My best suggestion on the matter would be to mention to the pc's that attacking all npc's as they rift/crawl/whatever is very unsportsmanlike and should be avoided as often as possible.
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Xanian
Sat Apr 14 2012, 09:45AM
Registered Member #14
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 03:47AM
Posts: 7
I try to always tell my NPCs, if you don't want to get hit, stop spawning right next to PCs.

If something is coming through a gate, it's not bad sportsmanship, its great strategy to block a choke point. If the elementals keep trying to go through a gate that is obvioously blocked, their leader must be terribly dumb and he deserves to fail at his endeavor.

If am an elemental lord and my minions that I am sending through a gate to take over instantly get returned to me. I try and find another way to bring them over (i.e. mass rift away from the gate).
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Dain
Sat Apr 14 2012, 10:57AM
Registered Member #814
Joined: Mon Mar 12 2012, 08:37PM
Posts: 35
It is simply a survival issue. If a big bad monster is rifting in, it is in my(an adventurers) best interest to get in what hits I can. If I(the adventurer) wait for the monster to be fully effective, then I will have to deal with whatever it can do.

Rifting, as you said and I agree with, was most likely initiated for an effect. Be it the dramatic entrance of a powerful being, or a way to have a group travel to a different place then the ten feet they actually walked for a "closed mod". Also, as you mentioned, it was a way for a monster to escape. They have to take their lumps doing so until the count is done but it was still a method of escape. I have always rationalized this as they are half in one place and half in the other, and equally vulnerable on both sides. Because normally they'd be rifting to a safer location then beside an adventurer with a sword looking to do them in.
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silway
Sat Apr 14 2012, 11:42AM
silway
Registered Member #55
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 04:07AM
Posts: 128
The easiest solution here is for staff to stop using so many three counts. Elementals coming out of a gate? Construct an actual representation of a gate, light it up, and then just walk through the thing.

Mickey
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AdamTaylor
Sun Apr 15 2012, 07:23AM
adam taylor

Registered Member #54
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 04:06AM
Posts: 59
I don't think that is the easiest solution really. It is certainly great to have a phys rep sometimes. But you are essentially creating a door fight which are fun of course but shouldn't be used for evey battle because it would get dull. Just like not every battle should yousee monsters rifting in next to players.
What we do in our region in that a monster starts taking damage after 2. That way players still can get the jump on a monster and possibly take it down depending on stats. But usually the npc can make it In Play alive
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silway
Sun Apr 15 2012, 07:38AM
silway
Registered Member #55
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 04:07AM
Posts: 128
I was referring to the specific example of having a gate things were coming out of. Use a rep and don't use three counts.

If you want to broaden it, then the answer is *still* use less three counts. Well that and, if you want to avoid a door fight, stop recycling within arm's reach of PCs. You have to design encounters a little bit more rigorously but it's not particularly difficult. Inventing rules about how far into the three count damage starts is just adding complexity onto an already atmospheric breaking event and encouraging the use of a mechanic that is profoundly overused.
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LuthorHuss
Sun Apr 15 2012, 09:24AM
Registered Member #1175
Joined: Sun Apr 08 2012, 07:45PM
Posts: 43
yeah caue putting a prop door wawy from PC's is going to stop them from moving towards the door. You can put a gate rep as far away as you like, but as soon as PC's know that is now a spawn point they are going to converge on it like it's just spewing gold coins.

Other then changing when monsters could be hit during a count, why not try giving them threshold of some sort till they are fully in play. Afterall if they are still materializing, it would go to say that they are not fully there and thus not fully taking damage.
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madhobling
Sun Apr 15 2012, 07:46PM
Registered Member #62
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 04:33AM
Posts: 51
That was my point Luthor....If you are not gone from a place till the three count is done, then you are not at the new place till you are done. Which is why the person/creature can't do anything until their count is done....cause they are all there and can't affect anything there. It would save a lot of frustration on the npc side, and frankly keep npc's from getting aggravated and explode at the players.....and keep it safe for the npcs. I mean have you ever had to stand in one spot and let an army of pc's pelt you with packets and weapons just so that you could start over again 4 to 5 seconds later.....then when staff sends out big monsters to break it up, things get unsafe cause the crowd can't disperse to get away from the biggies (something else that almost happened dureing this fight).

but my point was not to ask for suggestion on how to make that one situation better, they were rifting in cause an item was drawing them there, so that is how that situation worked. We did use gate reps also....but again I was not looking for advice I wanted to get people to discuss the rule itself.

It doesn't add complexity to say that until the count stops the monster is not in the place so they are unaffectable.....it used to be done this way for just the reasons I have stated. Then sometime during recent years, rules people started interpreting the counted actions rule as meaning coming into play also.....but all the examples in the 8th edition rulebook were for situations where the npc was already in play and was passing through something or leaving play......not coming into play.
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silway
Sun Apr 15 2012, 08:05PM
silway
Registered Member #55
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 04:07AM
Posts: 128
On a pure rules design level, and assuming these are legitimate three counts and that you want to keep them in the game, it is simpler and cleaner to let all people be effected mid-three count instead of carving out situations in which sometimes they are and sometimes they are not based on the variable nature of the various three counts staff might decide their NPCs should use in any given situation.

Mickey
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