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spell pyramid rules
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Kenji
Fri Apr 05 2013, 06:47PM
Registered Member #2159
Joined: Sun Jun 03 2012, 07:33PM
Posts: 15
So, as far as I understand them, the rules in the core rulebook for buying spells state there can be a maximum of 2 levels of difference and a minimum of 1 level of difference between any two spell levels you are purchasing.
This means that before you buy your third 1st level spell you must buy your first 2nd level spell.

What I would like to know is:
Can you make a pyramid that always uses the two levels difference to get a large number of low level spells?
ie:
10x1st
8x2nd
6x3rd
4x4th
2x5th

I was pretty certain that you could, until the recent release of the new character builder with the race change does not allow you to have this 2 difference between levels. Thoughts?


EDIT:
also, as long as my FINAL pyramid looks like say...
6/6/6/5/4/3/2/1
that should be fine yes?


[ Edited Sat Apr 13 2013, 07:49PM ]
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dukratha
Fri Apr 05 2013, 09:35PM
Registered Member #9
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 09:44AM
Posts: 72
Further, the pyramid must be constantly building, which means that the level above must have only one less than the amount you are buying. In other words, to buy a fifth 2nd level spell slot, you must have a fifth 1st level spell slot and a fourth 3rd level spell slot.


The scenario below it in the rulebook does go a little further into it, but it is still kind of hard to explain. Basically, when you have 2 more 1st level spells than you have of second, your next spell purchase has to be a second.
This means the only time you can legitimately have 2 more spells of a previous level, is while you are transitioning.

Does that make sense? I understand it, but it is kind of hard to put into words.
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dukratha
Fri Apr 05 2013, 09:38PM
Registered Member #9
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 09:44AM
Posts: 72
I just realized that my sloppy form of an answer might not help you very much.
In simpler terms, no you cannot have a pyramid like the one you described.
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Kenji
Sat Apr 06 2013, 06:10AM
Registered Member #2159
Joined: Sun Jun 03 2012, 07:33PM
Posts: 15
I see, well that is most disheartening. I very much liked the idea of a spell cater with just a slew of low level spells. I suppose I'll have to live with a classic mage build.

Thanks for the clarification.
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Kenji
Sat Apr 06 2013, 06:20AM
Registered Member #2159
Joined: Sun Jun 03 2012, 07:33PM
Posts: 15
I see, well that is most disheartening. I very much liked the idea of a spell cater with just a slew of low level spells. I suppose I'll have to live with a classic mage build.

Thanks for the clarification.
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AsheBlackfist
Sat Apr 06 2013, 10:02AM
Registered Member #44
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 10:02AM
Posts: 147
Kenji wrote ...

I see, well that is most disheartening. I very much liked the idea of a spell cater with just a slew of low level spells. I suppose I'll have to live with a classic mage build.

Thanks for the clarification.



You can still have a 12, 10, 9,8,7, etc pyramid or some such, and it's still very bottom heavy.

I don't know if it was the original intent, but the pyramid style restricts low level spells for a great reason. Low level spells are ridiculously powerful. The most build efficient spell is second level, for both templar and scholar. I'm sure that having a character with nothing but first and second level spells, or be very bottom heavy, would be super popular. After all, low level shield magic poppers, cure light/cure wounds pick me ups, and magic armors are ridiculously good.
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Jackson
Tue Apr 09 2013, 02:43AM
Baron of Cathym, Volta
Registered Member #90
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 10:44AM
Posts: 25
Its really hard to explain and the DB doesn't support it either. Sounds like something that should be looked at?

I'm pretty sure you can forge into it, but you are in fact screwed if you want to get higher level spells. But then again this year it doesn't matter since you can continually forge.
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dukratha
Tue Apr 09 2013, 04:04AM
Registered Member #9
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 09:44AM
Posts: 72
You can't use a forge to get an illegal build set.
And yeah, we've suggested changing the national DB to use the appropriate pyramid scheme a while back. I think Bill has just been a bit overwhelmed with a lot of the other changes that have popped up over the past couple years.
So technically, you can build your character illegally in the DB. But it is still illegal, and if you have an observant staff member checking you in, they might require you to fix it.
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Corey.Kump
Fri Apr 12 2013, 02:48PM
Registered Member #66
Joined: Mon Aug 08 2011, 10:34AM
Posts: 140
I don't see anything in the rulebook prohibiting a 4/2 spell tree (or ending your tree with 4/2 instead of 4/2/1).

Ashe, the 12/10/9/8... tree that you posted is illegal. Page 29: the first and second full paragraph (emphasis mine), states:

"You may buy more than four spell slots per level but there must always be at least as many spell slots below that level in order to support the new amount. Further, the pyramid must be constantly building, which means that the level above must have only one less than the amount you are buying.
In other words, to buy a fifth 2nd level spell slot, you must have a fifth 1st level spell slot and a fourth 3rd level spell slot."


In summary, the rules for differences between the number of spell slots of two adjacent levels:
You can have a difference of 1 or 2 if you have 4 or fewer slots in both levels.
If you have more than 4 slots in the lower level, you can only have a difference of 1.
You can have a difference of 0 if you have at least 4 spell slots in either level.
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Kenji
Sat Apr 13 2013, 07:13PM
Registered Member #2159
Joined: Sun Jun 03 2012, 07:33PM
Posts: 15
So basically is my pyramid progressions going to have to look like the following to get as many low level spells as I want:

4/3/2/1
4/4/2/1
5/4/2/1
5/4/3/1
5/4/3/2
5/4/4/2
5/5/4/2
6/5/4/2
6/5/4/2/1
6/5/4/3/1
6/5/4/3/2
6/5/4/4/2
6/5/5/4/2
6/6/5/4/2
7/6/5/4/2
7/6/5/4/2/1
7/6/5/4/3/1
7/6/5/4/3/2
7/6/5/4/4/2
7/6/5/5/4/2
7/6/6/5/4/2
7/7/6/5/4/2
8/7/6/5/4/2
8/7/6/5/4/2/1

I am having a hard time sorting out which rules apply when :S because as i read it the "continuously building" rules clashes directly with the allowance to build outwards. because if I have to build up if possible then I'd have to get every tier to 4 spells then all to 5 spells and so on...
and almost no one in my home chapter interprets these rules the same. was their no clearer way to do this?
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